When Is It Time to Change Directions? | Sue Willoughby

We spend so much time looking for the right decision. Should we keep going? Should we let something go? Is something difficult because it's worth pursuing, or because we're forcing it?

In this episode of No Map Included, I sit down with Equus coach Sue Willoughby to talk about self-trust, changing directions, and becoming more comfortable with uncertainty. We explore the difference between resistance and forcing something that no longer feels right, why curiosity can be more helpful than certainty, and what happens when we stop believing we have to figure out the rest of our lives all at once.

We also talk about people pleasing, judgment, listening to our bodies, and why changing your mind isn't necessarily the same thing as giving up.

In this episode, we discuss:

• How to know when it's time to change directions
• The difference between something being difficult and something feeling forced
• Learning to trust yourself when there's no clear path
• Why making the decision is often harder than taking the first step
• The role curiosity plays in navigating uncertainty
• What horses can teach us about awareness, boundaries, and self-trust
• People pleasing, inner judgment, and learning to listen to ourselves
• Why not every decision has to be forever

Connect with Sue Willoughby

• Website: willoughbycoaching.com
• Instagram: @sue_willoughby

If you're in a chapter where you're questioning what comes next, I hope this conversation reminds you that you don't need to have the entire path figured out before taking the next step.

About the Podcast

No Map Included documents the process of building stories in real time: from proof of concept to premiere.
Hosted by filmmaker and producer Yessi Sanchez, the podcast explores the work behind the work and the paths that don’t show up on IMDb.

Transcript

Yessi Sanchez (00:00)

Welcome to No Map Included. I'm your host Yessi Sanchez.

Today's guest is Sue Willoughby, an Equus coach who has reinvented herself more times than most people would ever dare. She's been a DJ, a comedian, a pilot, and now helps people reconnect with themselves through horse guided coaching. This conversation is about reinvention, self trust, and

One question I've been thinking about a lot lately When there is no clear path, do you follow the path of least resistance? Welcome, Sue. I'm so happy to have you on the show.

Sue Willoughby (00:38)

Hi Yessi, it's great to see you again.

Yessi Sanchez (00:39)

you talk a lot about reinvention. ⁓ you've lived so many different lives. ⁓ when you look back, do you see one thread connecting all of those versions of yourself or does each chapter feel like a completely different person to you?

Sue Willoughby (00:44)

Yeah.

You know, that's a that is a really good question. And when I think about things or when I'm thinking about trying something new, I always find that there is a piece of a past life, if you want to call it that, that is gonna be part of the new reinvention. So the short answer is I believe that there is a thread or many threads that I have taken

from one iteration of myself to the next.

Yessi Sanchez (01:25)

Well, I want to talk a little bit about something that we touched on last time when we talked on your episode. ⁓ what has guided me through a lot of tough times as an actor was the mindset of if it were easy, everyone would do it. So I was always pushing and pushing harder and harder and harder. But lately I've realized that some of the biggest opportunities in my life unfolded

with surprisingly little resistance. So how do you tell the difference between something that's simply difficult and something that you're forcing?

Sue Willoughby (01:59)

That's another good question. And I think that there's no right answer, to be honest, because I think that it all depends on how badly you want something. And sometimes you can want something that's not good for you, like a relationship, for example. And you may push through and you're like, Why didn't any of my friends tell me that this person was a narcissistic sociopath, right?

Or something like that. And you're like, okay, well that was you know, and you may have had to work hard at that. But I think that if there's something in your heart that you're totally being drawn to in a very internal way, and I do go into my body and say, Does this feel right? How does this feel? It's not about how hard you push, but when you do push, does that feel energizing or does it feel draining? So, like you said

if everything was easy or like if acting was easy, everyone would be doing it. If flying a plane was easy, everyone would be a pilot. You know, if losing weight was simple, everyone would be skinny, you know? So I think that it just depends on what your motivation is, how you know, how you feel when you're on this journey, does it feel good? Like I said, if you're pushing at something

And you're you're you're forcing it. Is it exhausting or or is it energizing? Cause you know, like to become an actor, you had to work hard. And we all go through periods of time where we do ask ourselves that question, like, is this worth it? And that's when I feel like we have to go in and see how we actually feel physically about something. So

Yessi Sanchez (03:23)

Mm.

Right.

Sue Willoughby (03:43)

A lot of times I've learned to trust my inner compass And sometimes things don't have to be forever and that's okay.

Yessi Sanchez (03:53)

would you say when you're listening to your body and even though things are hard, does it feel like the path of least resistance to you? what does it feel like for you when things align?

Sue Willoughby (04:06)

When things align and when you're in flow, it does feel like the path of least resistance. Like I I think my analogy to that was water, right? Water is always gonna find the path of least resistance. It's gonna bump into something and then it's like, okay, well, I can't go through this. I'm gonna go around it. So we have to ask ourselves, or I have to ask myself, can I go around this? Is there some other way that I can get closer to where I wanna be if I do something different?

So it may just mean shifting how you're doing something. Because if you're doing something the same way over and over again, I'm sure you've heard this, you're gonna get the same result. So get your head out of your butt, you know what. And seriously, I don't know if I can swear on here, you can always beat me out. Get your head out of your butt and and be like, okay, how else can I figure this out?

Yessi Sanchez (04:56)

Ha ha.

Sue Willoughby (05:02)

If it's meant to be, there's always a way. You just have to take off the blinders and open yourself up to other possibilities.

Yessi Sanchez (05:05)

So

So maybe we can get into like the spiritual aspect of that. You were saying, meant to be. sometimes I have a hard time believing in that. And sometimes I'm like, yes, this is meant to be. It's like I I trust the universe, I trust whatever you believe in, I trust myself. do you feel like that is connected to

your self trust, like that whatever is meant to be, does it flow into each other, basically?

Sue Willoughby (05:40)

yeah, I mean how do we really know what was quote unquote meant to be, right? And I think that kind of goes circles back to how we started the conversation of, you know, like when do you give up on something or when do you push forward? And I think

Yessi Sanchez (05:47)

Right.

Sue Willoughby (05:56)

There's no recipe. There's no roadmap. There's no, you know, formula that everyone can follow and get the same results. It just doesn't happen. It's all individual. And so it may be that, you know, this was meant to be for me. And it wasn't meant to be for the other person. I don't know. Right?

So I think, depending on how you feel about that whole spiritual aspect of it, I think that there's things that like you said, it and once again, were you meant to be an actor? Was it meant to be? Clearly it was because on some level, because you you followed that path, you got through the roadblocks or around them and found the path of quote unquote least resistance.

To pursue your dream. I think if it's something that we want badly enough, and it was meant to be, not everything's meant to be. And if it's not, maybe you kind of get into the thing that you thought was meant to be, and you're like, ⁓ okay, I don't have to stay here. I can move on. I can do something else, which is kind of how I've lived my life.

Yessi Sanchez (06:59)

Right.

Yeah.

Yep. Yeah, definitely. So what I'm hearing out of this is like you sometimes gotta get a little bit creative and kick yourself in the butt and figure it out and force yourself to figure it out if it really means a lot to you. And the other thing, the other aspect I guess, that you're getting at as well is luck so it's kind of both. But where does

this radical self trust come in. Can you elaborate a little bit on that in your coaching, especially or when you're dealing with people who are trying to find a new path?

Sue Willoughby (07:40)

Yeah. So kind of if we go back to that that thing and we were talking about whether it's meant to be, not meant to be, you know, how do you know when it is? And I'm gonna go back to that energy that you feel in yourself. And you know when you feel drained by something or someone, and you know when you feel energized by something or someone.

when you make a decision or when you make a step in a direction.

your radical self-trust, what comes up for you? How do you feel in your body? I you know I'm gonna go back to that again. does it feel good to you? think about how you feel when you're excited about something. Whatever that feels like, do you get like, does your stomach get a little bubbly and you know, you you just feel like you have more energy? What

What are those physical sensations? And when I say feel, I mean feel, not just, I feel happy about that. What the heck does happy feel like to you? You know, that people people have a hard time describing when I'm talking to someone and you're asking them about, they're trying to make a decision about that. Well, if if you did this thing, how does that feel to you? If you did went this other path, how does that feel to you?

Yessi Sanchez (08:32)

Right, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Well, so how can you train that? Because like you mentioned before, a lot of people have a hard time describing their feelings and maybe they're not they they don't really go in to listen to what feels good. I feel like that is a really hard thing to learn. And I feel like I had a lot of stuck points where I was staying in those stuck points for a very long time before

I made a decision. I didn't know what feels right and what is just anxiety. What is like my fear is to talk into my head, like where do you make that distinction and how do you practice that?

Sue Willoughby (09:32)

I think when I heard you talk about being in your head, that's where we spend most of our time. And when we can stop letting our monkey brain run us crazy, because you know, let's face it, there's so many inputs that we have in the course of a day. You're like, ⁓ I could do this, but then you see something on Instagram and whatever it is. We allow so much input

To affect how we react to things or how we pursue things that we're interested in. And it comes down to like, do we feel judged if we do something? why did you stay stuck in certain areas? I'm gonna I'm asking you, why do you feel like you stayed stuck?

Yessi Sanchez (10:15)

Mm.

⁓ I think the fear of what my younger self would say, that was a huge thing for me that I didn't want to let myself down if I decide to step away from acting. because I was always convinced that I would be one of the people who would still be acting when like by I don't know, what's sixty eight?

seventy, whatever, you know, I thought this was something that I was gonna do my whole life. and so disappointing myself, basically, or my younger self, that that was a huge fear for me. And then also, yeah, being judged. I was on a on a reality show in Switzerland where they accompanied me to ⁓ move my move to LA basically and I just

That was a thing that I just wanted to experience and it was ⁓ on national TV and a lot of people saw it and were judging me for it and being like so naive that I wanna make it in Hollywood, whatever. so that was also a thing where I was like, Okay, I don't wanna let anyone know that I have these feelings now that I don't want to pursue acting anymore. I would

prove them right and I didn't want to do that for a very long time. Now I don't care. But but for a very long time I didn't want to prove them right. And those were the biggest things, I think, for me. Yeah.

Sue Willoughby (11:34)

Yeah, so I'm hearing like judgment from your past and from your inner self. So I think we definitely judge ourselves more harshly than anybody else is going to. No matter, you know, there's always gonna be trolls, there's always gonna be people that are gonna judge

you know, inner judgment, outer judgment, the fear of failing, I mean, then that's just another level of judgment. what if I try this? You know, what if I if what if I don't act anymore? What if I leave acting for five years and go back? You know, or twenty years and go back when I'm in my how, you know.

50s, 60s, 70s, whatever that is. or what if I never return? Am I happy doing what I'm doing? Am I happy with the decision that I made? How does it feel to me? You know? It I think that the making a decision is harder than actually taking action once you do make that decision. Think about it. If you've ever made a decision.

Yessi Sanchez (12:18)

Mm-hmm.

Sue Willoughby (12:31)

And it you've been laboring over it, like should I, shouldn't I, what are people gonna think? What am I gonna? my god, I'm gonna look like a failure, blah blah blah. Right? We spin off into a million different directions up in our brain, rather than trusting our instincts and our body to help guide us as to what is correct or for us. And then you finally go, you know, screw it, I'm just gonna I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this. And then when you do, hopefully

It feels like the right choice and you feel like lifted. You feel lighter because you've been carrying around all of this stuff that just is sucking the life out of you. And it makes things that much harder once you can kind of make a decision. And like I said, sometimes we need help with that. We need some guidance. We need not another opinion because people are happy to offer you an opinion.

And once again, that's just their opinion.

Yessi Sanchez (13:29)

Do you feel like in your life when you think about all the different chapters in your life, do you feel like you had such stuck points or were you always more like going with the flow?

Sue Willoughby (13:43)

yeah, there were times when I was stuck for sure. and then there was times when I just charged ahead and didn't think about the consequences. And I think that that statement right there might scare the crap out of some people, right? some people are so risk averse. I'm the opposite of that. And then sometimes I'm like, ⁓ shoot. I guess I should have had a net under me when I tried that stunt, right? But safety first.

so I think I've done a little bit of

both where you know most of my decisions have just come to me, you know, I ⁓ an opportunity presents itself. I'm like, that seems really interesting. It came to me for a reason. I'm just gonna try it. I'm gonna do it.

Yessi Sanchez (14:25)

That sounds wonderful.

Sue Willoughby (14:27)

It's yeah, I mean it sounds great and and it's not for everybody, right? I don't know if it's because I have ADHD or what, but I'm just curious about so many things in life that I haven't let that fear of being curious stand in my way. and like I said, sometimes I've made decisions or choices that were not the best. But hey.

Yessi Sanchez (14:30)

Right.

Sue Willoughby (14:51)

That's it. It's a journey and it's a learning experience. You know, if you're on a hike and you pick up a plant and it burns you, you're like, I guess that was a stinging nettle and that was probably not a good idea. So I'm gonna put some stuff on my hand and keep going.

Yessi Sanchez (14:51)

Right.

that's a really great mindset because it sounds like that's just naturally who you are and I think a lot of people need to like try not to overthink and try to

force themselves almost to be an adventurer, so to say.

how do you train to listen to yourself, like to your inner signs, ⁓ when something feels aligned, because again, I feel like not like a lot of people don't have that. A lot of people don't know how to listen to themselves or their feelings or how something feels.

Sue Willoughby (15:42)

practice makes progress is what I'm gonna say. And it's all about building awareness, and awareness starts with curiosity. start with something easy. If you're interacting with someone and it feels not quite right, be curious about that.

if someone says something that makes you feel like you want to jump down their throat, right? Take a deep breath and be curious about why you want to jump down their throat and choke them or whatever, and at the same time, what's coming up for you in your body? Like if somebody makes you angry because of something that they said, like it feels like an attack.

Where does it resonate in your body? Does it does your chest get tight? Does your stomach feel like, my God, I just feel like somebody punched me in the gut? You know, do you get a pain in your shoulder? what physical sensation are you experiencing when something happens? Like when something triggers you? Or, you know, because we all have these physical sensations, we just choose to ignore them.

And just use our head. So it's all about taking a pause, taking a deep breath, and before you react, and whether it's a good thing or a bad thing or whatever, assess, like take that information in because everything that happens to us is just information. And it doesn't happen to us, it happens just because it happens, right?

It's just information and the only thing that we can control is our reaction to that. have you ever wanted to, you know, say something to someone but you were afraid of how they were going to react? Right? And so you get like butterflies, you get nervous or whatever.

Yessi Sanchez (17:27)

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Sue Willoughby (17:31)

You have no control over how they're going to react. All you can do is speak your truth and be okay about it. And however it lands with the other person, that's what they have to deal with. That's them, right? So in terms of training yourself, it's just about building awareness. If you find that you're just reacting and and getting angry and getting, you know, and wanting to at you know, if you're just like all the time, raging.

Yessi Sanchez (17:43)

Mm.

Sue Willoughby (18:00)

Why are you raging? Ask yourself. Ask what you're feeling. Why do I feel that? Same thing if an emotion comes up and you start crying, right? Where did that what happened before those tears actually left your eyes? Where did that start? You can usually feel it somewhere in your body. So start connecting with your physical being. And when I work with horses, that's exactly

Yessi Sanchez (18:02)

Mm.

Mm.

Sue Willoughby (18:29)

what we work on. That's a huge part of it. Because horses are prey animals. So they use all of their senses all the time to constantly assess every bit of information that's coming to them, whether it's a scent, whether it's a sound, whether it's something they see or f you know, or notice that, you know, connect with another ⁓ being, you know, another horse in their herd or whatever.

They're assessing, am I safe? Am I gonna, is that gonna hurt me? What can I do? What do I need to do? So if we can kind of be the horse for a moment, right? And start to be like, okay, where do I feel that in my body? Does that make me feel a little uncomfortable? Why does it make me feel uncomfortable?

Yessi Sanchez (18:59)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sue Willoughby (19:16)

And then it's like maybe the person that you're interacting with is doing something that doesn't make you feel comfortable for whatever reason.

Yessi Sanchez (19:24)

Yeah. I feel like we love to swallow that and just put it somewhere else, especially as women, because of that people pleasing mentality that we were brought up with. And so getting back to hold on a minute, let's assess this. What am I feeling? I think getting over the hurdle of like, no, I'm gonna assess this

I'm not gonna just say yes to everything. I'm gonna set boundaries. I'm not gonna be people pleasing right now. But taking the moment for yourself to doing a service to yourself almost, like to have that mm hmm. Yeah. I think that's a huge thing.

Sue Willoughby (20:01)

Yeah. Taking information and processing it. Like a

Mm-hmm. It can make a huge impact on you over time. So yeah, so I would just say build awareness and always be curious. and you know, I'm not perfect. I don't but I have become a kinder, gentler version of myself over the years.

Yessi Sanchez (20:07)

to actually take that time. Yeah.

Sue Willoughby (20:23)

I used to be very reactive. I was very angry because I wasn't happy with myself, right? So maybe that's something that you need to look into if you feel like you're always lashing out at people or making judgments about them or, you know, saying, you know, not nice things about pe you know what I mean? It it's coming from a place in here, not out there. It's coming from inside you. Assess what it what is it about yourself that you don't like, right? 'Cause

Yessi Sanchez (20:39)

Mm-hmm.

Sue Willoughby (20:52)

Well in coaching there's just you know a saying we say like you spot it, you got it. Right. If you're pointing your finger at somebody because of something that they're doing, ninety-nine percent you're probably doing the same thing or you feel the same way. And then you're like, yeah, and you're like, look what that person's doing. You're like, shit, I do that all the time.

Yessi Sanchez (21:07)

Mm-hmm. And it's making you react. Mm-hmm.

Right, yeah. Yeah.

I think this is we almost went like backwards and like assessing when to like leave a stuck point or when to push harder. I feel like it really starts with that curiosity and that self-reflection first with yourself, training that and then it's just gonna become easier and easier to make

Sue Willoughby (21:33)

Yeah.

Yessi Sanchez (21:42)

make those decisions because you are listening to yourself and your emotions and what signals there are with your gut feeling and your body in general and your head. Yeah, I think that is very powerful stuff.

Sue Willoughby (21:50)

Yeah.

you can also get stuck in, you know, when we're in our head, you can get stuck in analysis paralysis, right? Where you're just like overanalyzing every well, if I do this, then, you know, and all you're doing is creating stories. you know, analyzing every Nats aspect of something, whether you're trying to talk yourself out of it or you just, you know, and it just comes back down to what are you doing?

Why are you why are you putting yourself through all of those gyrations? You're spinning stories that may or may not be true. Usually they're not. Right?

Yessi Sanchez (22:25)

Right.

Yeah. Well, that's one thing why I feel like I'm getting more and more comfortable with ⁓ not having a clear path. ⁓ I mean I'm still working on it, even though my my podcast is called No Map Included, but I haven't figured it out. but that is something that I keep going back to. Yeah.

Sue Willoughby (22:47)

Do you need a map? Do you know where you're going? Does it matter where you end up? There are some people in life that, you know, are very focused and have followed a path. Like you you know, like you said when you were a kid, you're like, I wanna be an actor, I'm still doing it, you know, think about that, right? And there are some people that do that, like you know.

I have friends who are doctors and they just did the thing because they love it and that felt right to them. Me, I was very all over the place like a pinball machine, you know. But everything that I learned, I can pull in knowledge from all of my life experiences, and they've all served a purpose. And I think that was kind of one of the things that you asked me up front.

You know, is there a thread? And like I said, there's a tapestry. There's lots of threads. And, you know, our lives are woven, right? They're not linear. They're woven and we pull things in from all over the place, from other people, from experiences, and put them all together to make them our own. And I think that that is an important thing to think about.

in terms of, you know, what is our path and and I I don't know. Our path is it happens as with each step that we take.

Yessi Sanchez (24:03)

Hundred percent. Yeah. what I was trying to get at is that with that being uncomfortable with not having a path. I I feel like I always thought I had exactly a vision. I always knew what I wanted to do. I always had a vision and now getting comfortable with that uncertainty is because

you don't have that stability. Even if you built your life around having stability, you never know when something traumatic or something crazy is gonna happen that is out of your control and you have to start again. And so I feel like staying like flexible and

to be comfortable with that uncertainty can be a powerful life skill when life hits you, I feel like. And so yeah, I've become really comfortable kind of being lost or I'm trying. I just I think a lot and I keep

telling myself stories because I am a storyteller ultimately. but it's it's nice to know that those stories can change and that you don't have to follow exactly the path that you made for yourself when you were fifteen. Who knows how old you were when you made that decision, what you wanted to do for the rest of your life.

Sue Willoughby (25:19)

Right.

I you know, I'm amazed that when you were fifteen thought that you knew what you wanted to do for the rest of your life, right? You know, I mean that's that's huge. I don't I I guess that's something I've never subscribed to because I never really knew. Like I never really knew A where I fit in. I didn't really you know, I was kind of a not a a loner, but I mean I I was never in any of the clicks.

in in school and I always just felt a little outside of everything. And there's a new term for that. There's like introverts, extroverts, and outrovert. Right. That's a new thing where you kind of feel like you, you know, you have empathy and whatever. And I'm like, ⁓ that sounds kinda, you know. so I've always kind of made my own path and I've not really been able to say, I'm gonna be this when I grow up, 'cause I it that's still

Yessi Sanchez (25:52)

yes. Yes.

Sue Willoughby (26:07)

I'm still asking myself that question. What do I want to be when I grow up? I don't know. I don't know.

Yessi Sanchez (26:12)

It's funny because

I always thought it was a superpower because I I looked around w my friends didn't really know what they wanted to do. They were figuring it out and I was like, Yes, I love that I know already. Like I don't even have to think about this. And then it yeah, it hit me when I was like twenty eight or something, when I was like, Okay, wait a minute, maybe I don't really know what I want to do for the rest of my life. and then I had to deal with that then. But

Sue Willoughby (26:23)

Yeah.

Yessi Sanchez (26:39)

I mean, you constantly are dealing with it, right? Like you constantly are thinking about like, okay, what's next? but I guess I d I wasn't really aware of that when I was in my teens Yeah.

Sue Willoughby (26:51)

Yeah, well

when you're a teenager and you're like, I want to be an actor. So you became an actor. Okay. And then you're like, okay, well, now I'm an actor and I don't know that I really want to do this for the rest of my life, or maybe I'll just take a break. Okay, what other opportunities are out there? Right? If you look at it like, okay, I did that, that was fun. Maybe I'll come back to it. Maybe I won't. And what else is in store for me? can I branch off from being an actor? Which you have, right? And you're still in the business.

Yessi Sanchez (27:05)

Yeah.

Sue Willoughby (27:19)

you're a producer so you've taken what you learned in one area and using it now in another area.

Yessi Sanchez (27:19)

Right.

Yeah. Well but the thing too, when you have so many opportunities if you can do anything you want, do you feel like that can just be feel claustrophobic almost because there are almost too many options for you?

Sue Willoughby (27:45)

I wouldn't say claustrophobic. I would say maybe a little overwhelming because it's, you know once again, I'll go back to the ADHD. It's like I want to do everything all the time, all at once, right? Everything everywhere all at once. and you can't do that because it really is exhausting. But I try and focus on what is lighting me up at any given time. And if it is

Yessi Sanchez (27:50)

Mm. ⁓

Yes, yes.

Sue Willoughby (28:10)

Podcasting, I'm gonna podcast, right? If it's doing, you know, UGC, I'm learning about user generated content creation now. once again, that's pulling in from all of the skills that I've ever done, you know, in front of camera, being an audio and video producer, you know, doing all of those things. And I'm like, I could do this in my sleep, right? But it's, you know, taking all those skills and turning it into something else. And it's

Yessi Sanchez (28:24)

Mm.

Sue Willoughby (28:37)

I like to think of life as kind of a playground. Now, like I said, it I haven't always felt that way, but I've always kind of lived that way. where everything's an experiment and all you're doing is taking in information as you're going, as you're doing an experiment. That's what scientists do, right? They experiment and they track what they're learning and they they use that in in maybe another experiment or whatever. So that's kind of how I've

Yessi Sanchez (28:47)

I love that.

Sue Willoughby (29:04)

Explored life, I guess you could say.

Yessi Sanchez (29:05)

Yeah. I really love that. ⁓ treating life as a playground. I think that is that is so like low stakes too, where you can experiment. Like w if you take like you said before, if you take everything too seriously, like that I think that can be suffocating sometimes. You didn't say that exactly, but I that's what I'm adding to.

Just to close this out a little, I do want to talk a little bit more about your work with ⁓ the horses. ⁓ how did you get started with that? When did you get started with that? ⁓ yeah, can you talk a little bit more about what you teach with the horses? Yeah.

Sue Willoughby (29:45)

Yeah.

Well, I think I I came to horses honestly because I grew up in a you know, ⁓ difficult situation as a kid. My mom was an alcoholic, single parent. ⁓ my parents split when I was young, so you know, youngish. but I li went to live with my mom and I had to deal with that.

But even before my parents split up, I mean I would I would beg to go to the barn. I just felt good around horses. I don't know why. I just felt, you know, I didn't make that connection. And every time I had an opportunity to be with a horse or, you know, any of that, ⁓ it just felt good. I felt safe. I felt understood. I felt seen and now I know why.

Because of the way that horses are and the way that they accept us. And I talked a little bit about that when I said that they are prey animals. And we are predators, right? Our eyes are in the front of our head. We're always, you know, going after something. You know, we're humans are predators. Horses are prey animals. They may be twelve hundred-pound prey animals, but in the wild, they're prey to something. So

When you are working with them, and the way that I work with them and a client is that I'm observing their behavior because I'm familiar with how horses see the world, take in the information that is around them, process that information. And if they don't feel comfortable with something, they will behave a certain way. So when I'm working with a client and

they are in an arena. The horse is at liberty, so the horse can walk around and do whatever it wants. and the person is interacting with the horse. I'm watching for the horse's reaction, which allows me to ask very informed questions about what are you observing with the horse? Well, he's way over on the other side of the arena and he's ignoring me. he doesn't like me, he's bored with me, he's blah blah blah, the horse, the horse, the horse.

here's the thing, it's not about the horse. Right? The horse is just being a horse. If those are the things that you're thinking about the horse, the horse is just doing his thing. He's just over there maybe rolling in the dirt or he's doing whatever the heck he wants because it makes him feel good. Right? If you're saying the horse is bored with and the horse, it's like, okay, where in your life are you feeling this?

Yessi Sanchez (31:50)

Yeah.

Sue Willoughby (32:11)

Well, I'm at work and and nobody respects me and you know, it's like, okay, you know, we just like crack things wide open. And it's just it's how, you know, whatever it is that you're bringing that you have in the outside world, you're gonna bring it into the arena and the horse is gonna act accordingly because they don't have the ability to make judgments on us.

You know, so they're not gonna judge, they're not gonna lie, they will mirror what you're giving them. you know, they don't care if you're scared if you're honest about it. But if you're not being honest and you're putting up some sort of a facade or some sort of a wall, the horse can pick up on that because they know what's really going on inside you, but they sense that you're like, Nope. I'm putting up this wall because I don't want you to know that I really am feeling hurt or sad or whatever.

The horse is like, Okay, I'm just gonna stand over here until you're ready to be more congruent, where your insides match your outsides. So they can really peel away the layers very quickly.

Yessi Sanchez (33:16)

that's really fascinating. I always knew that horses are just very sensitive. That's why I'm very scared of riding a horse because I know that I'm I'm scared of it, so I'm like, I don't I don't want the horse to freak out too because it can feel my emotions, you know. So but yeah, exactly. but I think that is really fascinating that

Sue Willoughby (33:33)

Well, they can feel your emotions, yeah.

Yessi Sanchez (33:39)

I mean, that's you who asks the questions and can kind of crack open your client. And I think that is also very fascinating. Do you feel like that skill came from working with the horses where did that skill come from, or is that just you?

Sue Willoughby (33:55)

You know, I think a lot of it is informed by my lifelong journey with horses, ⁓ and being around them. And then when I went through the Equis coaching program, I was like, ⁓ I get it now. And it has also given me the opportunity to be more

of the horse, right? To take into that's why I say always be curious, always be aware of what's going on, be curious about the information that's coming to you and process it. Don't hold on to it, right? Because horses don't hold on to something. If another horse comes up and kicks it in the butt or kicks it in the head or di whatever, they may have been doing something to provoke it. They may not have, but they're like, okay, message received, I will be on my way.

But they're not gonna go back to the rest of the herd and go, Did you see what Sally just did? She just kicked me, right? And then talk about it for the next six months or six years. Cause they don't do that. Can horses be traumatized? Yes, absolutely. Can they hold on to that trauma? Yes, absolutely. Does it take sometimes? Cause they shut down. They kind of go into freeze mode, right? Just like humans can tuck away trauma. So if you're working with a traumatized horse, which is not what we're talking about here, but I mean

Yessi Sanchez (34:51)

Hm.

Sue Willoughby (35:10)

they still have to build that trust back up and and you know, so can all those things happen to them? Yes. But as a rule, they don't hold on to stuff and make up stories like we do.

Yessi Sanchez (35:13)

Mm.

Right.

⁓ yeah, this was such a fascinating ⁓ conversation. Thank you so much. I think we got to really to some things that were really eye opening too. I I always feel like every conversation that I have on this podcast unlocks something within me and my journey. So I am very appreciative.

Of the conversations that I can have and ⁓ yeah, that you came on this podcast. Is there anything that we haven't touched on or if we did, ⁓ would you mind sharing where the listeners can find you?

Sue Willoughby (35:58)

Yeah, I think we've covered a lot of ground. yes, people can follow me on Instagram, @Sue_Willoughby, or they can go to my website, currently willoughbycoaching.com. ⁓ those are probably the two main places to get in touch with me. and my podcast, Midlife Strategies for Badass Women.

Yessi Sanchez (36:12)

yes.

I love that title. Yeah, thank you so much. And thank you guys for listening.